Hertil vil jeg da gerne lige tilføje den lidt spøjse detalje, at debatforummet på harekrishna.dk lige pludselig blev lukket og alle indlæg slettet som et resultat af de kritiske spørgsmål, som de blev konfronteret med der.

Nu skal du ikke få storhedsvanvid Forummet blev for det første ikke lukket, kun reduceret, så debatdelen forsvandt. For det andet var det ikke pga. dine "kritiske" artikler, men pga. lang tids overvejelse af det faktum, at jeg ikke havde tid og overskud til at besvare indlæggene. Jeg følte heller ikke, der var megen mening i at besvare dem, da der ikke er så mange læsere på harekrishna.dk, som der fx er her. Derfor prioriterede jeg mine debatter på andre fora end harekrishna.dk højere. Mere er der egentligt ikke i det.

Hertil vil jeg da gerne lige tilføje den lidt spøjse detalje, at debatforummet på harekrishna.dk lige pludselig blev lukket og alle indlæg slettet som et resultat af de kritiske spørgsmål, som de blev konfronteret med der.

Nu skal du ikke få storhedsvanvid Forummet blev for det første ikke lukket, kun reduceret, så debatdelen forsvandt. For det andet var det ikke pga. dine "kritiske" artikler, men pga. lang tids overvejelse af det faktum, at jeg ikke havde tid og overskud til at besvare indlæggene. Jeg følte heller ikke, der var megen mening i at besvare dem, da der ikke er så mange læsere på harekrishna.dk, som der fx er her. Derfor prioriterede jeg mine debatter på andre fora end harekrishna.dk højere. Mere er der egentligt ikke i det.

Dette forum er ikke et debatforum, men et forum hvor man kan stille konkrete spørgsmål til Krishnabevægelsen om specifikke emner, hvis man har noget, man gerne vil vide mere om.

De spørgsmål som jensen citerer her (via den citerede artikel fra religion.dk)http://jesusnet.dk/cafethomas/forum/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=41342&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post41711
angående artiklen "Sådan tester vi, om en religion er ægte" er i høj grad relevante som "konkrete spørgsmål til Krishnabevægelsen om specifikke emner". Hvis man ikke kan få svar på sådanne ting i forummet på harekrishna.dk, så kan man lige så godt lade være med at stille konkrete spørgsmål til Krishnabevægelsen om specifikke emner.

Forummet på harekrishna.dk henvender sig ikke til hadske ateister, og vi besvarer ikke deres forsøg på at miskreditere os med deres falske argumenter og nedværdigende retorik. Det er meget let at afgøre, om en person har sådanne hadske motiver, og indlæg der bærer præg af dette vil blvie slettet promte. Forummet er præmært henvendt til studerende og skoleelever, samt folk der skal have praktisk hjælp til visse ting. Men også til folk som åbensindet stiller spørgsmål til Krishnabevidsthed. Men man skal ikke starte en debat. Måske er formuleringen "Dette forum er ikke et debatforum, men et forum hvor man kan stille konkrete spørgsmål til Krishnabevægelsen om specifikke emner, hvis man har noget, man gerne vil vide mere om" ikke så god, og jeg vil se, om jeg kan finde på en ny, der rammer lidt bedre.

Derfor skal alle fremlægge deres viden og deres kærlighed til Gud, og den der fremlægger den bedste viden og den bedste kærlighed skal anerkendes af alle. Det er testen.

"En sådan betegnelse er naturligvis urimelig af flere grunde. For det første, så er jeg ikke ateist..."

Må man være så ubehøvlet at spørge hvad du tror på? Bare for at se "hvor" kritikken kommer fra... og så også lidt af nysgerrighed

Mvh Kim Otto

But after the first menstruation, the husband is ready. This is the system, Indian system.
Herfra

Here is a quick list of standards, all of which Srila Prabhupad instructed are to be followed by his followers, that are ‘unusual’ or at odds with Western system of marriage:

Father to arrange marriage of daughter (no dating)
Girl to be married even Before puberty (no later then 16)
No mixing of boys and girls allowed - strictly
As soon as girl has first menstruation she is to be given a child by her husband
Polygamy as a means to get all girls married
Boy must be minimum 5 years older than the girl
No maximum age difference
No divorce allowed
No remarriage for the women
Father must give dowry

All of these Srila Prabhupad has spoke about.
Herfra

And the girl who is already married at 8 or 10 years old, she will now have her husband, and the whole matter is also finished for her even before the agitation starts. No batting her eyes here and there looking at this one, "maybe that one. Oh, he is nice, and that one just looked at me, maybe he will be the one to save me," etc. Thus, getting the girls married at that age will reduce the agitation for the whole society, for the girls will now be properly protected. The whole game is over before it starts. This is the ideal system.

Leif Asmark: "Ja, det er forkert. Det står ingen steder skrevet, jeg har heller aldrig hørt det sagt, og det ville da også være helt absurd. Det eneste sted, jeg har hørt det, er fra den såkaldte debat på ateist-forummet."

Wedding Lecture, May 6, 69, in this lecture Srila Prabhupad says that if the girl is not married by age of 13 the father will go to hell .

"Den bedste kærlighed" hmmmmmm. Jeg synes jeg det er meningsløst at snakke om "den bedste kærlighed". En konkurrence om hvem der har den "den bedste kærlighed" lægger ikke rigtig op til noget konstruktivt.

Det må være betydeligt mere konstruktivt blot at søge og forhåbentlig finde kærlighed. Man kan så bestræbe sig på at fremlægge dette "resultat" på en måde så det er til glæde og inspiration også for andre.

1) Det er HK-tilhængere og ikke ateister, der værdsætter at en højere magt slår anderledes troende ihjel.
2) Det er HK-tilhængere og ikke ateister, der vil forbyde folk at sprede (hvad de opfatter som) løgne
3) Det er HK-tilhængere og ikke ateister, der vil at piger skal besvangres straks, de har fået menstruation og gør sig alle mulige krumspring for at det ikke skal hedde pædofili

Hellere være ateist, så.

En smule kildekritik ville være tilrådeligt.

"Why So Concerned About Marriage" chapter of the Brahmacarini Training Manual.

Krishna Consciousness Is For Renunciation.
Why Be So Concerned AboutMarried Life?:

Krishna Consciousness is a Society. Society means men, women, children, families, etc. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu married twice. Nityananda, Adwaita Acharya, Srinivas, Gadadhar, they are all married men. Srila Prabhupad was a family man. Krishna married 16,108 times. Married life is allowed, it is a part of Krishna Consciousness

The purpose of marriage is for husband and wife to assist one another in their service and progress on the path of love for Krishna. As we will read, Srila Prabhupad encouraged and wanted that all women be married. Especially every young woman must be married. Srila Prabhupad encouraged that brahmacari should remain life-long brahmacari, if possible. At least it is advised to wait as long as they can. Brahmacari is time for self-control, austerity. To build up strong character. Srila Prabhupad instructed, and Manu states in the Manu Samhita, that a boy should put off marriage up until the point when his service or duties become hindered due to mental agitation. Then he can marry. But, for girls, Prabhupad taught that prior to puberty they should be married. And girl should be given a child as soon as she is able.

Room Conversation August 15, 1971, London 710815rc.lon

The Vedic science teaches that the only way to control the girl is that she should be married and given children as soon as possible. Not that she should be sent to an ashram and forced to remain celebant like brahmacari monk. That is so at odds with Vedic culture. Boys can be sent and live in the ashram of the guru, but for girls, what is that? It is a complete concoction. That is why Srila Prabhupad said brahmacarini ashram is artificial, that for our own daughters, no ashram.

Dine øvrige citater svarer stort set til korrekt vedisk forståelse (og Srila Prabhupada) bortset fra dette: "As soon as girl has first menstruation she is to be given a child by her husband." Jeg søgte på den angivne hjemmeside, men kunne ikke finde det. Jeg har også søgt på citatet i Srila Prabhupadas samlede værker (som findes på en CD-rom og indeholder alt, han skrevet og sagt), men der er ikke noget, der svarer dertil. Er du bedre informeret end mig?

NOTE: Disclaimer: Although I have been a member of ISKCON (the Hare Krishna movement - or the International Society for Krishna Consciousness) since 1973 and am a direct disciple of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, and as such, being his disciple I am representing him in that capacity as best as I personally can, still all of the views I express are my own personal views. My views and these pages are my own, instigated on my own endeavor. I am not officially representing ISKCON nor are the opinions expressed here necessarily those promoted or agreed with officially or unofficially by the Governing Body Committee of ISKCON or any other member.

Her

Ajita: Den side hvor påstanden kommer fra er fra en side lavet af en hengiven, der mener, at Prabhupada vil have, at vi indfører polygami i ISKCON, selv om Prabhupada flere steder sagde, at det skulle vi ikke. Forfatteren bag siden virker en smule subjektiv, og han siger da også selv:

Polygamy

Required In Order To Establish
True Varëäçram-Dharma

"We Are…In Favor Of Polygamy"
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupäda CC Ädi Lélä 14.58

Based On The Teachings Of
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupäda.

Founder-Acärya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness

by Ameyätmä däs

First Printed Edition: October 1995

What Çréla Prabhupäd Taught About Polygamy Lectures & Tapes


3 days latter, Aug 19, 72, Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture again in Los Angeles, Çréla Prabhupäd says:

According to Vedic civilization, because man is very aggressive, so he's allowed to accept more than one wife. He's allowed. Generally, female population is greater than the male population. So the Vedic principle is that every girl must be married by the guardian, father. A father's duty is, as soon as girl is thirteen years old, fourteen years old, it is the duty of the father, or in the absence of father, it is the duty of elder brother to get her married. Some way or other, find out any husband. Yes. So if every girl has to be married, and if the female population is greater, then where to get so many husbands? Therefore it is very nice system that one man can marry more than one wife. That is natural.
...

On Sept 18, 72, during Srimad Bhagavatam lecture, Çréla Prabhupäd says:

Especially instruction are given to men. All literatures, all Vedic literatures, they are especially meant for instruction to the men. Woman is to follow the husband. That's all. The husband will give instruction to the wife. There is no such thing as the girl should go to school to take brahmacäré-äçrama or go to spiritual master to take instruction. That is not Vedic system. Vedic system is a man is fully instructed, and woman, girl, must be married to a man. Even the man may have many wives, polygamy, still, every woman should be married. And she would get instruction from the husband. This is Vedic system. Woman is not allowed to go to school, college, or to the spiritual master. But husband and wife, they can be initiated. That is Vedic system. – 720918sb.la

Preface and Legal Notices:

This book deals with a subject that is illegal in most countries. It deals with instructions by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupäd (referred to in this book by the affectionate title used by his followers, “Çréla Prabhupäd”). Based on his teachings and Vedic injunctions the book makes arguments showing why polygamy should be allowed in society.

The aim of the book is to seek changes in the society’s perception of polygamy and the unfair laws which prohibit it. Polygamy is based on religious principles. As with any marriage it is a religious rite and should be protected by the Constitution. It is directly supported by many injunctions in the Vedic literature, most notably the Manu Samhita. Therefore to prohibit it is an unfair discrimination and violation of our religious freedom.

The views and opinions presented herein are not necessarily the formal and official views and opinions held by the legal International Society for Krishna Consciousness (referred to as ISKCON) temple entities or the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust publishers (BBT) or the Governing Body Commission (GBC) of ISKCON. Other than the references of Çréla Prabhupäd’s quoted teachings, which represent his personal views and opinions, all other views and opinions are those of the author.

This book is Copyrighted 1995 by Ameyätmä däs except for Çréla Prabhupäd’s quotes which are taken from the BBT VedaBASE Folio and are copyrighted by the BBT.

EDITORIAL
February 22, 1999 VNN3129

"We Are, Therefore, In Favor Of Polygamy"

BY AMEYATMA DAS

EDITORIAL, Feb 22 (VNN) — His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupäda (From Purport CC Ädi Lila 14.58)

Since this is part of the overal topic of the dharma of marriage that I have studied for many years, I must respond in strong objection to mother Prtha's recent editorial on polygamy (VNN3088) HER , in which she made many false and misleading statements in the name of Srila Prabhupad.

(mother Prtha: Prabhupada's real interest in polygamy was only in regard to protection, not about women's inferiority on a spiritual or intellectual level, only physically. However, when he saw his male disciples were not qualified he retracted the instruction of marrying more than one woman and changed it to a definite "NO.")

This is a topic that is much misunderstood in our movement. Of course, the Krsna Consciousness movement is meant to reduce sex life to nil, therefore, why should any of us be concerned with trying to defend such a topic? Because the topic itself is very much misunderstood. Polygamy, if properly introduced and practiced, will actually STOP illicit sex in human society. It will dramatically reduce divorce, in fact, it is one of the most important solutions to the problem of illicit sex and divorce. What do I base these radical ideas on? The teachings and words of the Founder Acharya of ISKCON.
...
Mother Prtha says, "Years ago in this movement it was common knowledge that Prabhupada had discontinued polygamy."

It is a common misunderstanding. And, yes, at one time he did instruct us to not do this. But, one major defect of mother Prtha's article is that this was by no means Srila Prabhupad's last instructions on the mater. His later and very last instructions on the topic were not opposed. Rather, it was he who many times, after Feb of 73, time after time continually promoted it.

Er du bedre informeret end mig?

First let us understand that polygamy cannot be permitted in our society. Legally it is impossible and neither are there many of our devotees who are prepared to assume the responsibility for many wives. Therefore as I have suggested previously as they do in Christian religion they have so many convent where the women stay and they receive protection. The point is that the women must be protected and it is the duties of the leaders of our society to see that this is carried out.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Satsvarupa -- Melbourne 10 February, 1973

After conferring with my various GBC representatives I have concluded that polygamy must be strictly prohibited in our society. Although it is a Vedic institution still there are so many legal implications. Neither are many of our men fixed up enough to tend for more than one wife. Polygamy will simply increase the sex life and our philosophy is to gradually decrease the sex life till eventually there is no sex life. The policy should be that all the women are given the utmost protection. Women are looking for husbands because they feel unprotected so it is up to the senior members to give all protection to the women.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Rupanuga -- Sydney 14 February, 1973

Jeg synes nu, han er helt klar. I princippet går han ind for polygamy, og han forsvarer det. Men i praksis fandt han ud af, at det ikke virkede i ISKCON og den vestlige verden, fordi folk er så degraderede:

Jens: Jeg er overbevist om, de fleste følger Prabhupada´s instruktioner om ikke at indføre det, fordi polygamy ikke på nuværende tidspunkt virker i ISKCON og det meste af verden for den sags skyld. Måske vil det kunne indføres senere, hvis samfundet ændrer sig i en mere vedisk retning.

Women must always be honoured and adorned by their fathers, brothers, husbands and brother-in-law, who desire their own welfare'(Manu Smriti 3:55). 'Where women are honoured, there the gods are pleased; but where they are dishonoured, no sacred rite yields its rewards'(Manu Smriti 3:56.) 'The family in which the women lament quickly meets with destruction; the family in which the womenfolk rejoice will always prosper'(Manu Smriti 3:57.) 'A wife who is tainted by sin, whether she be quarrelsome, or having left home, or having been raped, or fallen into the hands of robbers; must never be abandoned; to forsake her is not prescribes by the sacred law. (Vasista Samhita 28:2-3)

jensen: Nu ved jeg godt, at du mener at have tilbagevist de såkaldt falske anklager om pædofili ved at henvise til en række definitioner fra saglige kilder, der viser, at så snart pigen er over 13 år, så er der ikke tale om pædofili.

jensen: Måske du ville være så venlig at redegøre for, hvorfor det er formålstjeneligt at en pige på 14 år, hvis hun ikke skal have seksuel omgang så i det mindste skal loves bort i denne alder?

Despite the best training and the best company, most teenagers want to associate with the opposite sex. Therefore, Vedic culture prescribes early marriage, on religious principles. That kind of marriage makes the mind peaceful and receptive to spiritual instruction.

Parents must help their sons and daughters find suitable marriage partners, except for children who are going to stay happy in lifelong celibacy. Parents should understand that adolescents have only three choices in sexual morality: celibacy, marriage, or immorality. Because of the danger in a society where boys and girls mix freely, marriage should be encouraged.

We sometimes mistakenly think that an "arranged" marriage means that the parents force a twelve-year-old girl to marry a thirty-year-old man -- and they meet for the first time at the wedding. Prabhupada gives us a different picture. He tells us of a gradual process, usually spanning several years. The parents look for a suitable partner for their child, taking into account that the boy and girl should be equal in character, qualities, social position, and renunciation.

The parents judge the match through their own observations, by asking others, and through astrology. The wishes of the boy and girl are also important. Once the families and the boy and girl agree, a period of occasional, supervised association begins. It's as if the parents introduce their child to a suitable mate and then chaperone formal "dates" to prepare the children for marriage. When the children are old enough to marry, the girl may still spend long regular visits at her parents' home so she may gradually get used to being a wife. An extended family makes this easier by helping the new couple in their duties and relationship.

This time-tested process can be easily followed today. The girl engaged to a suitable boy doesn't have to advertise herself to find a man. And the boy knows he can't marry until he becomes responsible. He is therefore motivated to mature into a conscientious man of good character.

Built on the early training in renunciation, their marriage will be dedicated to Krsna, fulfilling our hope for their future.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Teens and Celibacy

Kvinder er en af fem slags personer, nemlig brahmana’er, børn, kvinder, gamle mennesker og køer, som alle har pligt til at beskytte. Alle ved, at koen indtager en specielt hellig plads for hinduer, men ikke alle ved, at kvinden også gør det.

"SB 6.18.42 From Purport :

"A man should be trained to be a first-class devotee of Lord Krsna, and a woman should be trained to be a very chaste follower of her husband. That will make the lives of both of them happy."

Leif: Det er således i orden at ønske at nyde sex , men kun under forudsætning af, at man er villig til at tage det fulde ansvar for de børn, der kommer deraf.
...
Jens: men personligt ser jeg intet problem i, at man bliver gift tidligt, så fremt man følger reglen om, at man kun må have sex for at få børn. Denne regel forhindrer pædofili, da man ikke må have sex med nogen, der ikke kan få børn.
...
I følge vedaerne er sex kun tilladt i ægteskab med det formål at få børn og opdrage disse til at elske Gud.

Gothari:
Det er fuldt ud muligt at have seksuelt samkvem med et højere mål end seksuel tilfredsstillelse, f.eks. med det formål at få børn, og at opdrage disse til et gudsbevidst liv.

Til Jens:
Må jeg opfatte denne udtalelse som at du ønsker polygami indført, men pænt venter til samfundet ændrer sig i mere vedisk retning?

Er du principielt tilhænger af polygami, hvor ældre mænd tager flere 9-10-årige pigebørn til sig som barnebrude? Og her skal jeg måske lige tilføje, at Prabhupada også synes, at det er i orden at selv 75-årige ægter disse pigebørn.

Jeg spørger, og håber på et seriøst svar.

Kan du stadig stå inde for vedaerne kvindesyn?

Jerry: Korrekt opfattet vedr. subjektivitet. Selvfølgelig er det subjektivt. Om det som følge deraf også er manipulerende, lader jeg læserne om at bedømme.

Hvad angår emotionel. Ja, dette er også korrekt opfattet. Hvis jeg ikke var emotionel, ville jeg slet ikke blande mig i debatten, men når jeg bliver præsenteret for et kvindesyn, som jeg subjektivt opfatter som dybt nedværdigende, så kommer også følelser med i billedet.

Jerry: Køer er hellige, men det er kvinder også! (sic)

Kvinder og køer har samme specielle plads for hinduer (læs: hinduistiske Mænd).

En ko er totalt styret af ejeren, og det samme er ganske åbenbart også tilfældet for kvinden.

Jerry: Eller for den sags skyld en masse andre citater om faderens absolutte overherredømme over pigebarnet indtil han overgiver hende til en passende mand. Hun præmenstruel, 9-10-11 år gammel, han ca. ti år ældre, der som pligt skal besvangre hende straks hun er kønsmoden.

Jerry:Er det sådan, at tempelpræsidenter og guruer kan være uden uddannelse eller er der nogle kvinder, der ikke er underlagt de gældende regler og har fået en uddannelse?

Jerry: Dette gentager jeg gerne, idet Jens tidligere har udtalt, at kvinden er det hylster, som mandens sædcelle indeholdende oversjælen tager bolig i. Og dette kun for at skabe nye tilhængere af Krishna.

Jerry: Denne skabelse (produkt af samleje) af nye krishnatilhængere skal ifølge Jens foregå uden nogen form for materiel nydelse, og først efter dyb hengivelse til Krishna, som et offer til ham.

At han dér er i uoverensstemmelse med Leif fremgår af følgende:

Leif: Det er således i orden at ønske at nyde sex , men kun under forudsætning af, at man er villig til at tage det fulde ansvar for de børn, der kommer deraf.

Eftersom Jens ikke har svaret på det, der faktisk var grundlæggende i mit forrige indlæg, vil jeg hermed gentage det.

Nu vrøvler jeg aldeles ikke, men du kan jo forsøge at forklare mig, hvordan du kan se det anderledes end undertrykkende, når små piger er tvunget til at blive gift inden de når end alder på bare 16 år.

Småpiger kan jo lide at være sammen med fuldvoksne mænd - de ved det bare ikke selv.

-Kan du føre bevis for, at kvinder pr. natur elsker familie i højere grad end fx mænd gør det?
-Kan du føre bevis for, at kvinder er bedst tjent med at følge deres "natur" som defineret af dig i stedet for at følge deres egen fri vilje?

Nelle: Vrøvl, det er kun en undskyldning for at undertrykke kvinder, du kommer med denne forklaring.

det der med opdragelse er jo en sjov lille ting, du mener måske det er bedre når piger bliver opdraget til at det er helt naturligt de skal giftes som 12-13 årige med mænd der er 25-30 år eller ældre, pigerne bliver jo opdraget til at tro, det er i orden, at de bliver behandlet som en handelsvare og de skal være underlagt manden.

jensen: Når folk er lidt forvirrede over, hvad Hare Krishnas position i denne debat er, så skyldes det måske, at I ikke tilstrækkelig klart har meldt ud helt præcist hvilket syn i har på kvindens/barnets frie valg. I benægter fx. pure, at kvinder kan blive tvunget til at gifte sig, men andre steder lægger Ajita op til, at frihed ikke ubetinget er positivt og at vi måske burde overveje, om det også er frihedsberøvelse, når vi tvinger vores børn til at gå i skole. Hvorfor stille spørgsmålstegn ved, hvor grænsen går, hvis I er enige med størstedelen af debattørerne herinde i, at man ikke må tvinge folk til at gifte sig? Hvorfor forsøge at skubbe til en grænse, hvis I mener, at den allerede er, hvor den skal være?

"According to the Vedic system, the parents would consider the horoscopes of the boy and girl who were to be married. If according to astrological calculations the boy and girl were compatible in every respect, the match was called yotaka and the marriage would be accepted. Even fifty years ago, this system was current in Hindu society. Regardless of the affluence of the boy or the personal beauty of the girl, without this astrological compatibility the marriage would not take place.

A person is born in one of three categories, known as deva-gana, manusya-gana and raksasa-gana. In different parts of the universe there are demigods and demons, and in human society also some people resemble demigods whereas others resemble demons. If according to astrological calculations there was conflict between a godly and a demoniac nature, the marriage would not take place.

Similarly, there were calculations of pratiloma and anuloma. The central idea is that if the boy and girl were on an equal level the marriage would be happy, whereas inequality would lead to unhappiness. Because care is no longer taken in marriage, we now find many divorces. Indeed, divorce has now become a common affair, although formerly one's marriage would continue lifelong, and the affection between husband and wife was so great that the wife would voluntarily die when her husband died or would remain a faithful widow throughout her entire life. Now, of course, this is no longer possible, for human society has fallen to the level of animal society.

Marriage now takes place simply by agreement. Dampatye bhirucir hetuh (Srimad Bhagavatam 12.2.3). The word abhiruci means agreement. If the boy and girl simply agree to marry, the marriage takes place. But when the Vedic system is not rigidly observed, marriage frequently ends in divorce."

Overvej at anklagerne er fremsat af folk, der har dedikeret deres liv til ateisme (de fleste er medlem af Dansk Ateistisk Selskab), ...

jensen: "...kvinders traditionelle rolle som emotionelle også kan tænkes i høj grad at være et historisk tilfældigt træk. Det kan jeg ikke bevise, det skal heller ikke bevises, for hvad der er bedst for andre, det kan ingen andre bevise! Det er måske der, mange mennesker bliver forargede, når Hare Krishna mener at kvinden ER noget bestemt og SKAL indgå i et bestemt rollespil."

Ajita:
Skal jeg tro på din påstand? Kan du fremlægge en liste over alle DAS´medlemmer?

Selv hvis de ikke er medlemmer, så er de hang-aroundere, og er det ikke sådan, at vores erfaring med rocker-miljøet siger, at sådanne ofte er værre end selve medlemmerne, fordi medlemmerne tvinger dem til at udføre det beskidte arbejde? Ellers kan de ikke kvalificere sig til at få rygmærket.

Din påstand: "Overvej at anklagerne er fremsat af folk, der har dedikeret deres liv til ateisme (de fleste er medlem af Dansk Ateistisk Selskab), ..."

Kan du bevise det, eller må vi konkludere, at det er påstand grebet ud af luften?